Vettel Admits He'll Defy Orders Again!

He's going to WTC next year October we'll have to wait and se how he does. He is a great driver for sure.

RR Harry Hogge wrote:LOL - You caught me - I do know a lot more than I put on about F1.

BUT - THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL...that I will EVER say their drivers are better than ours. NO WAY I will say that! I have seen more than a few of the former F1 drivers come over and NOT ONLY not be good in our cars, hell not even good in Indycars.

That is what I watch in open wheel. Indycar. Those guys have balls in open wheel comp. They run on road course, street courses and ovals. That is my open wheel series of choice.

IMO - I think that the best driver in the world is Tony Stewart. Not my favorite driver, but the guy can win in ALL series. Indycar, USAC, World of Outlaws, NASCAR.....I bet you put him in an F1, he would hold his own EASILY.

BTW! Where is our REAL LIFE NASCAR CHAT and REAL LIFE INDYCAR CHAT sections! LOL! I would live in that area of the site! You want to see blogging and commentary? Give me that section to roam around in!

Are you off your rocker?

First : Good luck fitting Tony into a F1 car, I know for a fact that fat little bastard had to had NO protection around him when he drove the McLaren at WG.

Second : Look at how Mansell in the 90's came over and won the CART championship. Which in my opinion was much more competative than INDYCAR is today.

Third : Sebastian Bourdai (wrong spelling) enough said

Forth : I totally agree that TC is BS and should never again be allowed in F1. I never liked it and totally agree it takes away from the racing.

Didn't realise my post would prompt suc a healthy debate.

When it comes down to it different driving disciplines take different abilities - all professional drivers are extremely gifted at what they do. Some skills transfer to other disciplines and some don't (like not being able to turn right lol - just joking Harry).

But back on topic... Watched the press conference with Christian Horner - he answered the questions about him being undermined and, indirectly, whether he has a role in the team, given Vettel has openly said he would disobey his orders, pretty well given the situation. But the reality is his position has been compromised!

Vettel has to realise how his childishness is affecting the whole team not just his already strained relationship with Webber.

RR Harry Hogge wrote:LOL - You caught me - I do know a lot more than I put on about F1.

BUT - THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL...that I will EVER say their drivers are better than ours. NO WAY I will say that! I have seen more than a few of the former F1 drivers come over and NOT ONLY not be good in our cars, hell not even good in Indycars.

That is what I watch in open wheel. Indycar. Those guys have balls in open wheel comp. They run on road course, street courses and ovals. That is my open wheel series of choice.

IMO - I think that the best driver in the world is Tony Stewart. Not my favorite driver, but the guy can win in ALL series. Indycar, USAC, World of Outlaws, NASCAR.....I bet you put him in an F1, he would hold his own EASILY.

BTW! Where is our REAL LIFE NASCAR CHAT and REAL LIFE INDYCAR CHAT sections! LOL! I would live in that area of the site! You want to see blogging and commentary? Give me that section to roam around in!

We will just have to agree to disagree about the driver issue Mr. Hogge. If you have seen "former F1 drivers" come to NASCAR and fail due to their lack of skill, I'd love to have that list of names. I can give you a long list of names of drivers who came to NASCAR from open-wheel and either were competitive, won, or excelled (A.J. Foyt, Parnelli Jones, Mario Andretti, John Andretti, Tony Stewart, Juan Pablo Montoya, Tim Richmond, Jeff Gordon, and Robby Gordon to name a few). Andretti and Montoya had lots of F1 experience. Like Owen says, there are special skills that one must master if one wants to turn a 3,500 metal sled repeatedly left at 200mph while surrounded by other sled drivers), but these are quickly mastered by the open-wheel guys (see above list...and I used to love to root for the Indy500/CMS600 same-day drivers like Andretti).

It does not work the other way around. As much as I love them (Bill Elliott [former idol], Mark Martin, Dale Earnhardt Sr. (rest his soul), or even Jimmy Johnson), pure NASCAR drivers don't have the fitness, reaction time, on-track decision-making skill and multi-function driving talent, to make it in F1, or even IndyCar. Here is Mr. Johnson's history at attempting to compete with the big boys:

"Johnson first raced in the Race of Champions in Europe in 2002. He was eliminated in the first runoff by then world rally champion Marcus Grönholm of Finland but he and Jeff Gordon and Colin Edwards racing as Team USA won the teams' championship. He returned to the event two years later but lost the quarter finals 0–2 to Mattias Ekström of Sweden who was DTM German Touring Car champion that year.
"Johnson entered the 2006 event but did not start due to injury received just days before the race. He still attended the event to cheer for team mate Travis Pastrana. In the 2007 event Johnson was eliminated before the quarter-finals by F1 driver Sébastien Bourdais of France."

One area we definitely agree on is IndyCar. I have always thought those were the best drivers in the world, or at least used to be when the technology was more akin to F1. And they may still be (with a polite nod to World rally drivers...notice how Loeb just steps into the FIA GT Series and wins!), but IndyCar needs to move more toward the F1 model and embrace chassis and engine maker competition, then make the cars faster and more advanced (and less ugly). That what perplexes me is your statement that F1 drivers are "not even good in INDYCAR" because many have been (Timo Glock, Barachello last year, and, as you will see, Bourdais this year) and one has won the driver championship in his first year, at the height of IndyCar technology and popularity (Mansell). But shit, back in the 80s-90s those cars rocked and the absolute skill needed to go from a banked 1.5 mile oval to a road course, to a flat 2.5 mile oval, to a street course, was just stunning. And, to some extent, is still why I think they are better drivers overall. It was well known that Patrick didn't have the physical ability to really compete on road circuits. That's why I think she will do well in Sprint Cup. Simona de Silvestro, however, is a whole different cup of tea, and may surprise many this year.

INTERVIEW WITH Kimi Rakkonen last year:

interviewer: I feel obligated to point out Formula 1 started today. Australian GP — find it on Speed!

Him: Formula 1 is for people that can’t drive real cars.
As far as the “real cars” comment, I’ve just read where supposedly driving stock cars is much more difficult than the Indy cars. The only NASCAR guys that have that kind of background that have had success that I can think of are Tony Stewart and Juan Pablo Montoya. Dario Franchitti, Sam Hornish, Danica Patrick have all struggled.

Interviewer: IndyCars are a long ways off F1 ones. But it is a bit of a different discipline. I’ll note.

Him: Admittedly, I don’t know much about Indy and F1 cars, but they look more closely related to each other than either does to stock cars.

I am going to go back to watching cars turn left at 200 mph now....espn2. Great Nationwide Race (where BTW Sam Hornish Jr is STILL trying to learn how to drive these cars) and watch the next round of NASCAR stars cut their teeth.

FAILED OPEN WHEEL DRIVERS IN NASCAR
- Scott Pruett
- Kimi Raikkonen
- Dario Franchitti
- John Andretti (have to admit, he did win a few)
- Jacques Villenueve
- "Mad" Max Papis
- Patrick Carpentier
- Paul Tracy
- Christian Fittipaldi
- Al Unser Jr

off the top of my head....give me a few hours, I bet I can search around the open wheel world and find more than enough....

But the above include multiple champions and Indy 500 winners. Amazing that Dario Franchitti came down here, made 10 of 14 races and RAN back to Indycar as fast as he could! LOL!

First off, that interview makes no sense (like most Kimi interviews, he is loathe to meet the press and a live wire...one reason people love him...think Dale Earnhardt).

My favorite Kimi interview was when he refused to answer a stupid question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_hFSoraHo

But if he's talking about F1 vs. stock cars, I'd have to agree. (I think he was talking about *real* car racers, like ALMS and World Rally. The best drivers may be indeed there. The F1 guys could quickly adapt and compete, but Kimi himself proved that even F1 drivers may not be as good as a Loeb.

NASCAR? Problem is NASCAR does not consist of "stock cars" and should take that part out of their name. In that respect, F1 is more "stock" than NASCAR. I mean, McLaren actually does design their own cars, as does Mercedes. Renault builds the engines, along with Ferrari. Unlike NASCAR, where all the cars look alike and they run a metal template over the edges so they are sure to only be distinguished by their decals. Engines? Who knows. But I do know one thing -- F1 official rules are public and very short compared to NASCAR *Official* rules, which are only available to competitors and regulators. I bet they are like War and Peace. Innovation in effectively dead in NASCAR. They have not been *real* since the 1970's.

As far as your list of drivers go, I asked you to name "former F1 drivers" and you have me a bunch of IndyCar hacks.

First, the list of "failed" includes drivers that have won? And some who have preformed quite well, like Villenueve (three podiums in nine Nationwide races) and some who never ran, like Al Unser Jr. (who won IROC twice and had a grand total one one NASCAR start). That's not a crossover, that's a lark.

Second, the list is very long, as is the list of drivers who have "succeeded" (however you define that, but you did say you idolized Stewart) is just as long. What does that tell you? Right. That it's relatively easy for IndyCar drivers to come race in NASCAR. Where is the list of NASCAR drivers (purely NASCAR) who have even attempted to run IndyCar or F1?

Third, many of the drivers you list were crappy in IndyCar. Patrick Carpentier? Christian Fittipaldi? C'mon now. Shitty drivers in Tony George's fiasco of open wheel on ovals only bullshit (IRL) does not count. Franchitti is hard to figure out and you kinda have me with that one, and even though I can't stand Ganassi, he does produce good machines. Dario may not be all that good unless he is in a good car. But he supposedly was in NASCAR? Maybe he's just not all that good?

Fourth, getting back to my actual point, re F1 to NASCAR, I only really know of two (not including Villenueve). One is on your list, one is conspicuously missing. Regarding Raikkonen, maybe the best driver in the world, he stepped into a damn box on wheels on an oval track and "finished 15th in his first NASCAR Camping World Truck Series race Friday night at Charlotte Motor Speedway....After starting 31st." And that a failure? What do you think Dale Earnhardt, Jr. would post as a qualifying in China if he ran today?

And even the semi-crappy ones do well in NASCAR! lol.

"Carpentier (not really competitive in IndyCar until it started to disintegrate) made his debut in the NASCAR Busch Series at Montreal's Circuit Gilles Villeneuve on August 4, 2007, taking the pole in qualifying and finished the race in 2nd place. On June 27, 2008, Carpentier won his first pole for the Sprint Cup Series for the Lenox Industrial Tools 301 at New Hampshire Motor Speedway. The pole was the first by a foreign born in NASCAR's top division since Lloyd Shaw (from Toronto, Canada) won the pole at Langhorne Speedway in June 1953. On July 5, 2008, Carpentier earned his best career Sprint Cup finish by finishing 14th in the Coke Zero 400."

"Scott Pruitt (decent, but not great anywhere) in 2007 nearly won his first Nationwide Series victory at the Telcel-Motorola Mexico 200 at the Mexico City road course only to lose it in the closing laps when his Chip Ganassi team mate the aforementioned Juan Pablo Montoya spun him out and Montoya would win his first NASCAR race. Pruett would recover to a 5th place finish, his best Nationwide finish at that time."

I'm going to shut up now. They banished us to our own section to fight it out. lol.

You are an in-the-blood race fan, regardless, Harry. So I love ya.

Hey, did you hear the comments about the Vettel-Webber blowup during the P2 broadcast? Anyone? Very interesting. Not all on Webber's side.

My guess is there is so much we don't know about the situation it's impossible to make a fair assessment of it. The press often is either wrong or reports things to be sensational. Much worse across the pond, I hear.

Now to test your NASCAR theory my good man....

You do know that Nationwide is akin to AAA baseball and AA is like the truck series right? And you keep mentioning road courses... More road courses. That is the only time we hire the ringers and that is just for a good points finish.

Scott Pruett failed in the big boy league, and as you say those road racing guys are the best in the world....and he is supposed to be the man in grand am ROAD RACING.

Patrick C - lost his ride quickly.

Jacques? - could not even buy HIS OWN team to race.



But the real question comes down to... If it is so easy and not real racing, how come they keep trying to come do it? Hunter-Reay wants to do it this year, as well as AJ IV, Marco,etc. would f1 want some of those guys? Bring your crybaby champ Vettel and plop him in the sled. We will surely make him cry, each and every week. And I can show you it's not about the money, as a red bull sponsored study already shows the driver money is in F1

This is a pointless back and forth and here is why: you have many many many ways to point out drivers on our side. Your group of owners and Bernie will not let a NASCAR guy in to their fold - because odds are there are quite a few that could quickly adapt and destroy those guys, essentially killing the theory that they are the best in the world. I can name 10 TOP TIER (Sprint cup) drivers that could do it and they don't all have massive open wheel experience.

I am going to throw the soap box across the track now! I will never convince you F1 guys to actually open up to NASCAR, and you will never ever convince me that F1 is the end all, be all in racing. BTW, the cars look more stock today with the GEN6 car than they have in a long time.

Give me a NASCAR page! This is not equality! Hahaha

Why do I feel that there is another long debate coming back for me to read in the near future....that I am sure would ask - name your 10 drivers.....

lol

hahahahaha

How about you name me 10 of your guys....oh my bad only 16 really get to race, err drive, err push a button

You asked:
"But the real question comes down to... If it is so easy and not real racing, how come they keep trying to come do it?"

I never said it was easy. If it were, everyone would do it. I never said it's not *real* racing, although that's closer to the truth with all the three ring shit (lucky dog, green-white-checkered, pace car if a hot dog wrapper gets on the track, etc.). I did say they were brave and good at mixing with the public.

In addition, F1 guys, in general, DO NOT come to NASCAR, who would then have to hope "the masses" accepted them (talk about political). Just go ask Hoosier Tire. Um, unless you are a minority and you really want Mexican Pesos. And for the Indy guys and girls, money is a huge part of it. NASCAR still makes massively more money than IndyCar (IndyCar suffered from a split, as you know).

F1 pays drivers many multiples of what they make in NASCAR, and F1 has a whole world of drivers to choose from. NASCAR pays drivers the most in the U.S. and has mainly U.S. drivers to choose from. You can do the math there. Bigger talent pool, lots more money = better talent. Just a fact of life.

And thanks for proving my point, that many NASCAR drivers have to have "ringer" replacement precisely because they cannot finish respectably on a road course...in their OWN series. Hundreds of good road racers have either gone to NASCAR (and NATIONWIDE would be like AAA if the pro starts routinely came down to compete) and finished decently, like Carpentier and Villenueve. Many others have excelled.What you continually say is "I bet they could...." But this is just wishful thinking on your part. They haven't because they cant. It's not about being given the chance. Faster cars require better reaction speed. More technology requires a smarter driver. Worldwide competition means you have to be the best of the best. Other great drivers never come to F1 precisely because of the sheer odds against gaining a ride. Some even pay to drive on the lower teams.

But one thing is for sure, this statement takes the cake:

"....you have many many many ways to point out drivers on our side. Your group of owners and Bernie will not let a NASCAR guy in to their fold - because odds are there are quite a few that could quickly adapt and destroy those guys, essentially killing the theory that they are the best in the world. I can name 10 TOP TIER (Sprint cup) drivers that could do it and they don't all have massive open wheel experience."

You can't really believe this. Bernie doesn't lock out any driver and the teams. The team owners simply want the fastest and smartest driver they can find. If someone in NASCAR could fill that bill, it would have already been done. You are going off a very biased assumption here, and breaking the first rule of logic -- trying to prove a negative. That leads straight to opinion. You have no facts to back your claim up because it's a false assumption. I know you WANT to believe it. I did too at one point.

Well, Roll on NASCAR! I hope you one day become a racing series that's interested in racing. In the meantime, I'll mull over the concepts of tire comounds, Kenetic Energy recovery systems, and traction control. All technology that goes or had gone straight from F1 to your car at home.

The closest thing I can think of that would combine at least a smidgen of the technology in an F1 car with different type tracks, with a car that is sort of a hbrid between the two is something like ALMS P1, but supercharged, running a schedule like IndyCar. Hey....that gives me an idea....

Yea, they could either push a DRS button, while deploying KERS into a corner or try to fumble round to find a cell phone that's duct taped to the steering column.

As I said before, You will not convince me of "your" bias beliefs on driver talent, and I will not get you to look at NASCAR as a top tier division.

Oh BTW, those races you bring up with the ringers in Nationwide, most were in the Sprint Cup drivers cars, as they were at a different track. Only Carl Edwards has really raced them and HE beat them. AND to further that point, the ringers are NOT in TOP drivers cars. They run second Robby Gordon, an Extra Penske car or etc etc. The top guys DO NOT GIVE UP THEIR SEAT to these guys. SO to say that they NEED them in the cars shows what little you do know about NASCAR. As you have said, you were a big fan in the 80's- 90's.....well that was 20 years ago....You brought up Mansel and andretti, etc etc. That was in the 70's.

The engineering aspect that you miss in NASCAR is there. You just fail to look at it in an unbiased way. I have been on the pit box for these races. I was with AJ Allmendinger at the All Star Race last year. I have seen what they do with those computers now. It has changed every year since I started working there.

I am not upset at all with our debate. I am realizing that I cannot open you up to look at what it is. You call it a three ring circus. You are damn right it is. That is why people show up and spend a week to do it all. EACH AND EVERY WEEK of a 36 race schedule plus two one off races. THAT IS OFF THE TRACK, THE SHOW. But on the track, that is not a circus. Those guys dont have predetermined finsihes, team orders, special ways to pass people, rules against touching....this is not wrestling.

I am a NASCAR guy, that worked in NASCAR, on the Nationwide (then Busch Series) level and Craftsman Truck Series (now Camping World), that has earned a NASCAR license to the professional level. I am biased for sure, because I lived it, I have an insight that few have. Just as you have a different insight into road racing. That is what makes this debate fun.

But I give up. There is no way to get you to look at it from a different view. Just as I believe all the BS in F1 is the same circus. You have to have special buttons to speed up, help pass a car, special places you cannot pass, penalties for touching, passing in certain places. Where is that KERS on my truck? To finalize my circus point - look at what this WHOLE thread started with... A RACE CAR DRIVER (supposedly) not following TEAM ORDERS to let someone else finish in front of him. As much as I do not like Vettel, I am not going to LET you beat me either. If I can win, I am going to win. Now that is a circus....

If these two were in NASCAR, all they had to do was bow up after the race and fight it out. Boys will be Boys.... but we need to do interview after interview whining about it in the Red Bull camp.....do you really believe that they are not LOVING the game that they are still keeping on about......Any publicity is good publicity huh.

I give up! Let me find a place to start my NASCAR rants! LOL

Harry Out

Too much reading for a computer screen, lol. I particularly like any racing, besides watching drag. I don't think you can put either NASCAR or F1 in the same category as "top echelon of motorsports". F1 only races on road courses and are quick and nimble, but you don't want to bang another car because they are fragile. Nascar is built to naturally take a beating and still be able to race. Nascar racing predominately on ovals with a few road courses. You need to drive Open Wheel cars way different than you would Stock Cars.

- Scott Pruett - road course ringer, taken out in Mexico
- Kimi Raikkonen - only ran a handful of truck/nationwide races while he was rallying
- Dario Franchitti - sponsorship issues with Chip Ganassi with Felix Sabates, a nice injury during nationwide Talledega race ending his foray into Nascar(for now?)
- John Andretti (have to admit, he did win a few) - don't know besides the win at Martinsville with the 43
- Jacques Villenueve - sponsorship/team issues with BDR, probably didn't want to start his own team like he did with a partner in F1(*cough*now Mercedes GP*cough*), select races with the 22 and 12, aggressive in 22 and 12
- "Mad" Max Papis - not too sure why he is not in trucks this year, probably sponsorship
- Patrick Carpentier - sponsorship/team falling apart, bad luck in nationwide road courses, funny stunt after winning a CART race(haha)
- Paul Tracy - don't know
- Christian Fittipaldi - don't know
- Al Unser Jr - don't know

- Juan Pablo Montoya - won two races with CGRw/FS and EGR, starting to get it(i think)
- Marcos Ambrose - won Montreal and Watkins Glen(both), running up front consistently in RPM equipment
- Nelson Piquet Jr - won truck and nationwide races, up front
- AJ Allmendinger - came in with a NEW team/car make, floating from struggling team to struggling team ending up at Penske, had a stupid mistake with a friend's friend, working to get a steady ride in Nascar, has an Indy 500 ride with Penske
- Scott Speed - kicked out of Red Bull Racing(Nascar), won truck and arca races, doing an alright job with the "back mark" 95 car
- Boris Said - finally won a Nascar race in 2011(or 2012) in Montreal after helping regulars learn road course racing

I just wanted to add this. This concludes the Peanut Gallery portion of the discussion. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Paul Tracy - failed nationwide attempts.
Christian Fittipaldi - failed in trucks and nationwide. Back in Europe somewhere now.
Al Unser Jr - ran in Daytona 500, crashed


The problem with Daytona is that it is just driving fast, not really on and off, like at a Charlotte or Texas or hell martinsville.

Btw - JPM avg finish this year - 27.5 - not figuring it out! Lol

I think your both wrong to a degree LOL. All drivers are good at their own discipline but occasionally a real superstar comes along that is so talented he can drive anything. It's so hard to compare drivers the way you guys are because they have been in different quality of car. What Mansell did for instance was amazing but you have to keep in mind he had the best F1 car of that year and then the team he moved wasn't too shabby either and im not saying he wasn't a great driver but he had a little help from the cars and teams he was in. So to sum up there are loads of great drivers but every so often a real superstar appears that can just drive anything and to be honest there hasn't been that many superstars.

I meen take Ivan Muller for instance hes won the Ice racing championship many times, World Touring Cars more than once, British Touring Cars as well as others, now could he drive an F1 car or Nascar etc who knows but you can't say hes not a great driver can you?

Just my opinion based on my 40 years of motorsport.

You waited THIS LONG to respond sir? LMFAO

and in the wrong spot originally! LOL I saw that before you moved it!

Hogg, it took him this long to read all these posts!!! Ya'll have too much ti e on your hands!!

haha

That's probably true Chels. But I'm out too, like Harry. Won't be able to change his mind, but I respect his opinion. There is no way I can prove "F1 will not let NASCAR drivers do...X" because it's a negative. All I can do is point to the fact that all we are talking about are drivers who have either started or stayed in road course cars on road courses. I have yet to hear about a circle track driver being mentioned as a "great" driver or who had had success in either IndyCar or F1. And racing in circles is the root of NASCAR.

While there are many forms worldwide (some of which NASCAR has latched on to), the summit of road racing/fast cars is F1. There is a reason why it is the world's second most popular sport. As much as I hate soccer, I could never ever deny that it has some sort of world class appeal because of it's popularity. Although popularity does not equal talent all the time, it usually does. I don't disagree that NASCAR has some "greats" (Del's definition; like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and Juan Pablo Montoya). The only circle track driver that gives me pause is Carl Edwards. He may be an exception to my theory. lol.

And Del, I agree. There are so many drivers out there who are great, but unknown. Loeb is getting known, but he was in that category for many years and still in the United States.

So let's get the hybrid started! Like IndyCar with GRID2 or Aussie Supercars with a few ovals thrown in. That would be fun.